Ex-cop says DOD tried to influence a judge in the Bob Lazar UFO saga

Area 51

MYSTERY WIRE — Government employees who agree to become UFO whistleblowers can sometimes face severe consequences, and in some cases, even death threats. Now, a new witness has come forward who can corroborate that such threats have occurred and are taken seriously.

Back in 1989, a young scientist named Bob Lazar told an outlandish story to KLAS-TV, claiming he had worked on alien spacecraft at a secret facility near the now-infamous Area 51 base in the Nevada desert.

Bob Lazar speaks to KLAS-TV in 2018 at the McMinnville UFO Festival. (Image: KLAS-TV)

The news team tried to find other witnesses who might buttress Lazar’s claims, and someone who helped was a career law enforcement officer and investigator named T.J. Jannazzo. Jannazzo has never spoken publicly about it until now.

T.J. Jannazzo (1980)

T.J. Jannazzo worked with the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department (Metro) beginning in 1978 doing patrol for two years. He then moved into a protection detail for the 8th Judicial District Court in Las Vegas. 

Over the next 12 years Jannazzo worked his way up the ranks and was offered an investigator’s position with the district attorney’s office where he worked more than 20 years before retiring in 2014 as assistant chief investigator.

During his time with the courts, Jannazzo did locate a woman who had worked for a defense contractor and who said she sat in on meetings at which military officials discussed Roswell-style crashes and strange materials sent to a secret base in Nevada. But after she agreed to speak to us, she changed her mind.

“I know that she had set something up to speak with you regarding her experiences out there,” Jannazzo said. “She had gone to Southern California to visit her kids, which we’re adults. And she was contacted and told that the desert was a very big place, it was really easy to lose people out there. And she shouldn’t really be talking about anything that she had already signed a nondisclosure agreement on to begin with. And they just made it really convenient for her to shut up or something was gonna happen to somebody.”

In an exclusive interview with Mystery Wire, T.J. Jannazzo reveals his side of the Bob Lazar story including the search for Dennis Mariani, Bob Lazar’s supervisor at S-4. 


You can watch the other three parts of the conversation between George Knapp and T.J. Jannazzo below.


BOB LAZAR – THE EARLY DAYS
(video at top of page)

George Knapp 
What were your initial impressions of Lazar?

TJ Jannazzo 
I found him to be extremely credible, just you know, from living here my whole life. Born and raised native Nevadan. Being around a lot of people that were involved with the test site, being involved in a lot of cases in court that revolved around the test site. And Yucca Mountain actually, I was part of that. I did the security team for the trial they had with Yucca Mountain on an individual that got injured out there and lost an arm. So I got a lot of inside info from the guys that were working out there. I mean I’d run around with a notepad talking to them all the time. Because if it was anything test site, I tried to switch it over to what do you know about UFOs? None of those guys would talk though.

George Knapp
Now was that pretty much universal? Anybody you knew who might be out there in a position to know something exotic, you’d ask them about it? And they clam up?

TJ Jannazzo 
Oh, always? Yeah, there was nobody that wanted to talk back in those days, especially now, you find a little bit more. You find people running around that claim they know something, or it did, but it doesn’t take long. As long as I’ve been around this stuff and being around it with yourself and others. You can sniff out the BS pretty quick, then they start throwing the typical names down, or the typical places. Like half the people don’t even know what S-4 was, and until Bob came out and you came out talking about S-4 that was, that was non-existent. Everybody thought it was just Area 51.

George Knapp  
Back in those days, there was so much that happened on a personal level. Threats that were made to Bob, people that followed all of us around trying to keep tabs on us, intimidation of witnesses that we’ll get into. Did you find that to be credible? I know that you and I, we did pay some visits to Lazar’s house together, or we were there at the same time before. It’s hard to convey to people what that time was like, how really truly weird it was, and that these events, these threats, these break ins were really underway. Can you remember many of the details about those events?

TJ Jannazzo   
I remember he was going through a great deal. I mean, he was constantly being intimidated. And then shortly after your special broke with him he was terminated out there. And he kinda was doing a lot of seclusion. I mean, I know at that time, he wasn’t talking to anyone rather than you or his few close friends like Gene Huff. I know he was always always in the mix somewhere. And Bob, a couple other guys, I don’t really recall their names.

George Knapp  
You know, unless you were there, it’s hard to get the sense that he really was worried, he was scared about what was going to happen to him back in those days. There were a lot of really strange events and inexplicable intrusions, things of that sort, when you hung out with him, person to person, was he trying to convince you that UFOs are real or trying to cram this down your throat or just give me those kind of impressions?

TJ Jannazzo 
No, he never tried to, in fact, you had to sit down and pry anything you could get out of him. He did not feel as though it was necessary to tell anybody or explain anything. If you knew him and he was in the right mood. You’d get to talk a little bit or because I was with you I’m sure I got to hear a lot of things that a lot of other people have never heard just by virtue of being part of that small group and and having his trust. And you know, when he got inadvertently threatened through the court system, through Judge Lehman’s court. That was quite profound. I know we didn’t haven’t talked about that a lot. And that was one of the things you might like to talk about.

George Knapp
Yeah, we will, I’ll lead up to it. So you were, we can now say it, we could never say it before, but you were sort of one of my secret weapons during this. You were helping me behind the scenes in a lot of different ways. So now it can be said, but you wanted to help back then, right?

TJ Jannazzo
Absolutely. Absolutely. This I think this is something that needs to be out there. I’ve always kept my fingers crossed and thought, well, maybe we’ll get lucky one of these days is not going to they’re not going to land on the White House lawn. But you know, I thought eventually it would get credible eyes on it from somewhere, which is now all happening. But back then yeah, I was trying to do anything I could to press it forward. And I mean you were my absolute best link to be able to, anything I found out was to get it to you. Otherwise, it wasn’t gonna go anywhere.

George Knapp 
One of the things you helped me with was to try to find witnesses, I had gone on the air, I made an open appeal. I said, hey, look, I know there’s people out there in this audience watching this television show, who knows something about this program out there. And I encourage them to reach out to us and one of the people who reached out through you worked for the Clark County court system. Can you tell me about her, we can hold her name, withhold that right now if you want, but tell me what your relationship was with her, how you knew her, and how you came to know what she knew.

TJ Jannazzo
Well, it was no secret back in the days when I was back in the juvenile court system that I was interested in the topic. And the young woman you’re speaking of, well, out of courtesy I’ll call her a young woman, she was a little bit older than I am. She was a court clerk. She knew I was interested. I always had stuff sitting you know, either a book or something I was reading. And we started talking one day, and she had mentioned that she actually worked and scribed a lot of meetings for a company she worked for, Holmes and Narver I believe is the way you say it. And I know they contracted through EG&G they were on the test site, she was actually present in rooms that were considered quiet rooms, white noise rooms, they even had a room that had windows in it that when they flipped the switch, it would wipe the windows out so nobody on the outside walking down the hallways could even see inside. She was attending the meetings. I know at the end of her meetings, the topics were always collected from her. She didn’t actually do the transcribing herself. She only took the notes, it was later given to somebody else that would transcribe them. So she walked out of the room only with whatever she overheard. And whatever she scribed.

George Knapp 
There was a particular meeting that she told you about involving Holmes and Narver and military people. Can you recall what she told you the version of the story?

TJ Jannazzo
This one I, it particularly I can’t, out of the conversations I had with her that one’s not ringing a bell. Okay, I might need a couple of prompts on that. I’m sure it would come back to memory, though. 

George Knapp 
What you had told me was that she conveyed this story, that she sat in on a meeting and one of the topics that came up, it was between Holmes and Narver, her employer and military officials who were talking about wreckage, strange materials, that from a crash site that somehow had been sent out to Area 51. 

TJ Jannazzo  
I now recall what you’re saying that was. And that was the hook to 1947 and to Roswell. They were talking about, we call it metamaterials, or you know all the strange artifacts that were found out there, and that company was the keepers of the artifacts, and I don’t remember … I know that they were kept out not at, at necessarily Area 51. But on the test site, somewhere near Area 51, that there was a facility out there, she discussed that. They discussed the actual makeup of these materials where it was, you know, some of the materials can match to Earth, like a titanium or an aluminum or whatever, in these alloys that they were studying, that’s got to be what we were talking about.

George Knapp
Yeah, there was a strange material that was somewhere out at the test site. And the implication was it came from somewhere else, that it wasn’t ours. That’s the story that you conveyed to me. And then I asked if she’d be willing to talk to me, and whether we can we could protect your identity. When I wanted to do an interview either on camera or audio or whatever. And then, you know, I reached out to her and suddenly she wouldn’t talk to me anymore. There was no, we were gonna have a meeting, and it ended, and I wasn’t able to reach her, and then you fill in the rest of that story.

TJ Jannazzo 
I know that she had set something up to speak with you. regarding her experiences out there. She had gone to Southern California to visit her kids, which are, we’re adults. And she was contacted and told that the desert was a very big place, it was really easy to lose people out there, and she shouldn’t really be talking about anything that she had already signed a nondisclosure agreement on to begin with. And they just made it really convenient for her to shut up or something was gonna happen to somebody.

George Knapp 
She was legitimately scared and your judgment?

TJ Jannazzo  
Oh, absolutely. It actually changed her personality, it changed our relationship. We were pretty good friends. And after that, she just never felt comfortable around me. And I obviously, I couldn’t even bring the topic back up again, because she’d essentially collect her articles and walk out of the room and go back to her desk or wherever. She was done.

George Knapp  
She perceived this as a legitimate threat?

TJ Jannazzo 
Absolutely and it was primarily she was more afraid for her children than she was herself.

George Knapp
How do you think they found out that she had had that conversation with you? And then that she was in contact with me?

TJ Jannazzo  
That’s the $64,000 question, isn’t it? I have no clue. But it’s just funny. It seems like every time, if you do retain any of this information along the years that you’ve picked up, it just never fails. When you start to talk about it, here comes somebody into your life that wants to know about it that all of a sudden, you either didn’t know him that well, you didn’t know why they want to know, what’s their interest. It’s just interesting how they always seem to find out in these circles. I mean, I know you’re constantly monitored. I mean, that’s obvious. I don’t know how else to put it. But I mean once you’ve got their attention, I don’t think they ever forget about you.

George Knapp
You know, she was one of six people who had agreed to speak to me, who talked to me on my phone at KLAS TV, who was visited within a day or two after speaking to me and agreeing to an interview, they get visited and told to keep their mouth shut. So I reached the conclusion that somebody was listening to my phone, presumably without a warrant to see who was trying to help me. And you know, today, we assume that our phones are monitored, that all electronic communications get sucked up into some giant supercomputer and stored somewhere. But back then, it really ticked me off. The idea that a reporter’s phone would be listened to and monitored.

TJ Jannazzo 
Absolutely. Yeah. Which tells you they’re concerned about what you know. Otherwise, why would they bother if you’re some crackpot out there or just seeking headlines? What would be there, I mean, I don’t know. But what else could you presume other than you personally, were being monitored.

George Knapp
I tried to reach out to her a decade later to say well enough time has passed. Maybe she’ll maybe she’ll speak to us now. Even not even using her name. She was still scared at that point. Did you ever have a chance to speak to her after that, or she stayed away from you for the rest of your career?

TJ Jannazzo 
No. I actually left the court system in 90 and went to the district attorney’s office. And so that effectively ended any routine conversations we’d have I was attending in another building and another part of the county, maybe ran into her once or twice and it was nothing more than just Hi, how you doing? How you been? And just left it at that? She certainly never brought it up again.

THE SEARCH FOR DENNIS MARIANI, BOB LAZAR’S SUPERVISOR AT S-4 

George Knapp 
There’s another incident that came up during our investigation of Lazar. We’re trying to verify parts of his story and he had told us that his boss, Dennis Mariani, out at S-4 wanting him to have a gun and have a concealed carry permit. And I don’t remember if you were involved in trying to track that down or not. But we found out where he had gone was that substation, that Metro (police) substation at St. Louis (Avenue), on St. Louis in the east part of the (Las Vegas) valley. Were you involved in any of that and trying to track that down?

TJ Jannazzo
I remember we discussed it, and I might have done some preliminary looking around, like looking for records for registered weapons. But back then also, I had to be really careful. If you didn’t have any business, sticking your nose somewhere. It didn’t take long for, I mean just your own superiors to know, you know, why were you in there. I mean, you can’t go into NCIC or scope, which is the local crime information system without leaving a digital footprint even back then. So other than Mr Mariani’s name being on the rolls of owning a weapon, there wasn’t much out there that anybody couldn’t find at the time.

George Knapp 
Did you find a record that said Mariani had a weapon?

TJ Jannazzo   
I believe I did. I’m almost certainly I did. You know that’s something, I still may have a connection or two that I could ask a question that we might get an answer to one that. I would need to get the correct spelling on that name. Again, it’s been forever since I’ve seen it.

George Knapp 
I’ll send it to you. I remember back then it was a blue card system or something like that. It was where the permits were literally on a blue card.

TJ Jannazzo   
Yeah, there were two different forms of ID you had to carry with a pistol in Nevada one was a concealed weapons permit, which wasn’t that easy to get ahold of back in the day. They’ve made them a whole lot easier to get now, but the other thing would be anybody that bought a pistol, whatever shop you bought it in would give you a sheriff’s blue card, and they stopped doing that, under this last administration. Sheriff Lombardo’s people don’t do that anymore. So if you buy a pistol, the only record of that is not wherever shop you bought it from, you know, whatever state or here locally, but they don’t do the blue card system anymore. But back then if you bought a weapon, a pistol anyway, not a rifle. You didn’t have to have blue card for a rifle. But you did have to have a blue card for a pistol and to be able to carry it concealed, just to be able to own it, period, in Clark County, actually the state of Nevada.

George Knapp 
Do you have a sense of whether Dennis Mariani was a real person, a lot of people don’t think he existed.

TJ Jannazzo   
I have, I have no doubt and I thought it was kind of funny that Bob used his name on his original interview with you when he was doing the shadow vision thing. It was just tempting fate.

George Knapp  
When you visited Bob’s house, did you ever see the disk holding the 115?

TJ Jannazzo  
Yes, I did. I was there with you when they were getting ready to set up filming on that.

George Knapp  
I know they were really excited about it. I didn’t really understand the little experiment they were going to do. But I do remember that disc that Bob said the 115 was in and there were a couple of times when he was, he had it in front of his particle accelerator sitting there, he was ready to blow it up if somebody came to get him. He thought it was real.

LAZAR’S LEGAL TROUBLES AND ATTEMPTS TO INFLUENCE THE JUDGE IN HIS CASE

George Knapp
Fast forward to this incident. So 1990, after Bob becomes known all over the world because of this series, he splits up with his wife, he’s very lonely, and he makes a really bad decision to get involved with this prostitute who had a little operation in a neighborhood. And he helped her. And when I found out about it, I thought he was joking. And I said, well show it to me and he took me there and I thought, Oh my God, my life flashed before my eyes. This is going to be disastrous. I said, you got to shut this down. And I got to tell the police. And he had told me there were two vice cops who knew this woman who were aware of what she did. They’d been to visit to place and see her, one of them had a crush on her. They didn’t arrest her. They just took a pass on it. So I called Metro, I called the undersheriff at the time and told them what was going on. I said, it’s done. It’s shut down. I’m not getting into this whole thing about these vice cops. I just want to let you know, and then boom, they come and arrest Lazar. They charged him with pandering. The woman who had been in prostitution working as a prostitute since Lazar was 12 years old, becomes a witness that it’s all his fault. And they go after him. Give me your sense of the fact that they were proposing felony and prison terms and all that stuff for this. These allegations, the criminal charges.

TJ Jannazzo  
Oh, back in that day, it was absurd to see someone not only charged with pandering but to the point that they’re talking pandering felony with prison time. I mean, there were pimps on every corner back in the day you’re driving around in their BMWs monitoring their girls on the corners of the strip. And yet here we got this guy who was essentially, Bob was just doing books for them I think is what the bottom thing was other than having maybe a crush on that lady. But he was doing books for them. And here they are, they were actively pursuing trying to see this man go to prison for that.

George Knapp
The parole probation report, you’ll recall, I have a copy of it, I’ll have to look up the names. But the parole and probation people wanted him to go to prison because they were angry, in part because they couldn’t verify his employment and education history. He told them the same story he told us. Where he’d gone to school, where he’d worked, and claimed that he worked out there. And they were angry about it. They wanted him to do hard time.

TJ Jannazzo  
They were angry because they felt as though he had to be lying to them. And but he stuck to his guns. He never, his story has never wavered over the years. And I mean this has been 1989 we’re talking about. I was a young police officer back in those days. And I mean, Bob’s story has not, if you know the guy, which you do, I mean, nothing has ever changed. I mean, it’s never varied. It’s always been very consistent. He hasn’t embellished anything. If anything else, he’s tried to go back and clarify some things that other people maybe have misconstrued over the years and you know, but yeah, PSI, the PSI unit, which is pre sentence investigation with PNP. You know, usually that’s all those folks do is that a lot of them don’t even actively monitor caseload, all they do is write pre sentence reports and turn them over. But yeah, it was almost like it was a personal issue. And they couldn’t get him to budge off of his story. They couldn’t. They couldn’t even rattle him back in those days to get him to try to change or stumble or anything.

George Knapp 
They ran into roadblocks in trying to get this information. You know they didn’t find out he lied. They just couldn’t get the information to confirm it.

TJ Jannazzo   
That absolutely right. I mean, the only , I know there was information. I mean, even with the Los Alamos, with him working at Los Alamos, I mean, they deny it completely, but yet he’s in a phonebook somewhere unless there’s another Bob Lazar somewhere with a rocket car.

George Knapp  
Judge Lehman, who’s now departed, but he got the case. You told me a story recently that I don’t recall hearing, that there was pressure put on him, that some people showed up in his office about this case.

TJ Jannazzo   
There’s no other way to put it because I actually saw the guys I heard judge laymen’s voice. Judge Lehman’s chambers were right next to the chambers with Judge McGroarty’s. So Judge Lehman was a very excitable kind of guy. And if something was said to him that he didn’t like he was not embarrassed to express his opinions, or get angry raise his voice. When these two generic white guy investigators show up back in the day, I mean, you know, suits without ties, I can remember it very clearly, because of my interest, number one, but they came there they explained to the judge, as the judge later said to me, because he called me into chambers later, he asked me if your questions I knew, Judge Lehman very well, I worked around for many years. He wanted to know what the scoop was, why there was such an interest in seeing this gentleman put away in prison over a pandering charge that nobody gave a crap about essentially that I mean, in the real world. And you know, I explained to him my thoughts on it and as to why because I already met Bob back in the day and knew him and had what little relationship I had with him through you. So I just tried to sit down and explain to Judge Lehman my point of view on the whole thing and what my beliefs were whether he was telling the truth or not. I really do believe that we all walked away with the thoughts of Judge Lehman believing it and I know when it came down to Bob’s sentencing that it was definitely not what the state wanted. I mean, Bob never did any time. He got a small amount of probation if I remember right, maybe two years. Yeah, no, luckily, nothing serious happened to Bob cause I guarantee if he went to prison, he wouldn’t be around now.

George Knapp
Did the judge tell you what these two people had said to him. And did he tell you who they worked for?

TJ Jannazzo  
There was no mention of who they work for whatsoever other than they were like, you know, generic government agency types, you know, more like more than likely like DoD (Department of Defense), what I can tell you in the part that we never discussed was a couple years after that incident, I was out on Nellis Air Force Base in the Judge Advocate General’s (JAG) office. Any time we enter a base on an investigation, we had to go check in with JAG, make sure they knew what we were doing, who we wanted to see, the whole nine yards, in case we were to make an arrest while we’re out there on federal reservation. In any event, when I was sitting in the JAG office waiting to talk to whatever JAG officer I was there to to speak with that day, one of those two guys came out of my back office and walked right by me. And he looked right into my eyes. I look right in his eyes. It was like that unacknowledged acknowledgment, and he just went out the door. But I just always thought that was funny that that’s where I see the guy.

George Knapp 
The sense that you got from the judge was that they leaned on, they wanted him to sentence Lazar to do some time.

TJ Jannazzo
Absolutely. They wanted him to follow the, well they always want them to follow the PSI requests that they make. But they also you know, most probation officers, at least back in the day, were more law enforcement oriented. And a lot of times, you know, if they recommended something, a judge wouldn’t follow their guidelines to the letter, they’d lighten it up a little bit or, you know, whatever they thought was appropriate. But these, these guys came in and told the judge pretty much this is what we need you to do. This is what you’re going to do for us. And with Judge, like I said, if you knew Judge Lehman that didn’t fly.

George Knapp   
So he was irate about somebody from the Department of Defense coming there and leaning on him and telling him how he should sentence a criminal defendant.

TJ Jannazzo 
Absolutely, that’s, that’s exactly what happened.

George Knapp
So a lot of interest in that pandering case, a lot of media were there. Because of that we had done these stories about Lazar. There’s pressure, as you mentioned, from unknown agents who are trying to lean on the judge. There was a lot of information that we got from congressman Bilbray, and others who said, hey we’ve been trying to investigate this guy and help secure his records. And we were told, you don’t have a need to know basically, so was an interesting time period. And I think Lazar, to be frank, was really concerned about going to prison, and considered maybe just going on the run, as opposed to getting sentenced to hard time. So it was really important, I didn’t want him to make that mistake, obviously, because he still be would have messed up his whole life. So we were trying to get a sense of what was going to happen. And I’ve never revealed it before, but you were very helpful in trying to, in sort of altering the course of all of our lives by giving a hint about what was going to unfold.

TJ Jannazzo 
Yeah, I was concerned, I really thought Bob was possibly going to make a huge mistake, and I tried to explain to him that no matter, you know, if you take off, it’s going to be a short term, what’s the word I’m looking for, short term experience, because they’re gonna catch you. I mean, then you’re really going to be screwed. I tried to explain to him that what little bit I could explain to Judge Lehman in regards to his situation, I felt as though Judge Lehman was going to give him a square deal. And I just tried to convey that to him and make him as comfortable as I could with all of that.

George Knapp  
And that’s what happened. I mean, we conveyed that information to Bob, he showed up got sentenced. It was a, you know, it was an appropriately light sentence for the offense. And life went on.

TJ Jannazzo  
Agreed. Agreed. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, be honest, though. If it was anybody else, I don’t even think it would have gotten that far would have been dealt at a misdemeanor level in a justice court with a fine, and that’s about it. Because they certainly weren’t doing that with any of the other guys that were out there that were allegedly involved in prostitution, or pimping or, you know, procuring whatever.

George Knapp  
Yeah, so you would see those cases in court all the time, it’s not a really big deal. And to have multiple felony counts, pursued with that kind of vigor. No negotiating it down. No reaching a plea deal. The PNP recommending prison time, it was unusual.

TJ Jannazzo 
It was extremely unusual. There were a lot of hardcore guys out on the street doing the exact same thing, that we’re really the brains of their operation. And I mean, the actual, there’s no other word, you call it but a pimp. And I mean, these guys are being overlooked on a daily basis, or occasionally paying a fine if they get caught with a girl in the car that they couldn’t explain the relationship. But they certainly weren’t in front of a district court judge being considered for a prison term. And I’m talking about hardcore criminals with records. So yeah, you might say it was a bit odd.

LAZAR AFTERMATH  

George Knapp 
So anything else that you recall from those days that maybe would help reflect on Lazar? His story, his credibility? I mean, you have had a lot of time to think about those days, it was a unique time for all of us. You know, it’s hard to recreate what it was like back then. But you’ve seen how the story is resurface because of Jeremy Corbell’s film, and it’s debated on social media every day. People who were there, who knew Bob before and during those events, and knew him well, believe him. People who read about it 30 years later on Twitter, struggle with it.

TJ Jannazzo
Yeah, I agree. I mean, he’s a sincere guy. I mean, he’s just a, I mean, look, where he could have probably taken this stuff over the years if he was trying to profit from it, or make a big name for himself. I mean, he could have made a lot of money with this. I mean, write a movie or whatever. He’s never, I’m telling you this like you don’t know. But he’s just not that kind of guy. This guy, he’s into his projects. He loves science, obviously. Guy’s just brilliant. One of the most brilliant people I’ve ever been around. It’s just no motive to make money from this or seek publicity or anything. He’s the only tried to get out of the way. He tried to come forth with something that I certainly believe and I think I’ve seen enough in my lifetime now and worked around well enough of it by now that I thoroughly believe the story and I believe Bob, just flat out.

George Knapp 
Have you ever had any other hints from people who have had some connection to being out there or worked at the test site and heard other things? Or is there any kind of confirmation, even bits and pieces that have come your way back then or since then?

TJ Jannazzo  
I well, I’ve been retired now for six years, and pretty much a hermit. My wife and I moved out here to Art Bell country, out in Pahrump to get away from civilization. But I mean, over the years, I can think of a couple people here and there, a couple of guys being in law enforcement, I was around guys that were like Wackenhut and some of the other deeper darker security outfits that were associated with (the) test site because even Wackenhut didn’t get near Area 51. They just did the perimeters. And I mean, then you get to the more serious guys, you know, the farther, if you were to actually make it onto the test site, you get the layers, as everybody knows, and I knew a couple of those guys that always, you know, other than I think we’ve discussed it in the past that you know, other than knowing something strange is going on, but they couldn’t put their finger on it. That’s pretty much it. I mean, nobody talks, nobody really talks, because they’re afraid of the repercussions. And I don’t just mean losing a job. It gets a lot more serious about that, especially when you start mentioning your family. If you got a wife and kids, if you have any knowledge at all on how to protect yourself, or if you’ve been in the business, it’s one thing to worry about protecting yourself. But it’s another entirely different thing when you’re trying to protect your loved ones. And they’re vulnerable.

George Knapp   
Well, I guess Lazar serves as a good example of that, you know, I know people look at the charges that were raised against any attempt to put him in prison for pandering and they see that as an example of what could happen to somebody who speaks when they shouldn’t speak.

TJ Jannazzo  
Exactly. I mean, you’ve had your encounters with folks over the years that, they’re just like, well, take the lady we’ve discussed earlier. I mean, she’s one person one day she gets contacted she’s a completely different person looking over her shoulder the next and she was just your normal, regular lady. I mean, it was just by luck that because I was into the culture that we ever had a conversation to begin with. And I guess she trusted me a little bit.

George Knapp
TJ, thank you for your time.

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